tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post4864729159460929030..comments2020-10-12T10:31:26.323-07:00Comments on NISHMA: Policy: Orthodoxy and HomosexualityRabbi Ben Hechthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-15207044617883569632011-03-22T15:38:50.534-07:002011-03-22T15:38:50.534-07:00There would seem to be an initiative in Israel to ...There would seem to be an initiative in Israel to arrange the marriages of gay men to lesbian women. See<br />http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-rabbis-launch-initiative-to-marry-gay-men-to-lesbian-women-1.348465<br /><br />I am not sure how to respond to this. There are various halachic questions that could be posed but I am sure that the rabbanim behind this venture have responses. I also wonder about the long term effects on the children in such famailies. There is an element of deceit in this and I wonder on many levels, including its possible effect on the children, what its effects will be. I also wonder about why such children have to be conceived through artifical insemination. Regardless of the participants attraction to each other, they are halachically married so why not just simply instruct them to perform this act for the purposed of procreation even though there is no attraction?<br /><br />I include this in the blog because as a policy does develop on the overall issue, this idea has to be included in the discussion.<br /><br />Rabbi Ben HechtRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-33021289517862562822011-02-20T09:48:55.518-08:002011-02-20T09:48:55.518-08:00Further to the sub-issue of how this matter will e...Further to the sub-issue of how this matter will effect the relationship between the Orthodox community and the general Jewish community -- andd our need to be aware of the potential concerns -- I direct you to the following post (with comments) at the Nishmablog <br />http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2011/02/i-guess-it-did-some-good.html<br />which includes a link to an article in the (Toronto) Jewish Tribune which maintained that a leader of Federation was involved in the attempt to declare the Jewish chaplain of the York Regional Police, an Orthodox rabbi, unfit for this duty because of his views on homosexuality which were simply the Torah views on the subject, and a discussion thereof.<br /><br />Rabbi Ben HechtRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-77289850691531651822011-01-11T16:16:17.210-08:002011-01-11T16:16:17.210-08:00In response to the Anonymous comment above, I woul...In response to the Anonymous comment above, I would just like to mention that my position really flowed from statements I heard in the name of Rabbi Aharon Feldman (Ner Israel, Baltimore) which were also expressed in his book. I do understand, though, the critiques of this position presented in the comment. There is clearly a challenge in accepting a gay orientation as a given. It raises such questions as why would God create someone in that way, assuming that it is an inherent characteristic of a person. Nevertheless, even if we perceive the development of a gay orientation as a result of psychological lack in upbringing, not every problem can be corrected. It is in this vein, one also expressed by Rabbi Feldman, that we should consider the alternative of a fulfilling, Torah, single, non-sexual lifestyle.<br /><br />Rabbi Ben HechtRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-26152263114207184872011-01-09T12:10:24.833-08:002011-01-09T12:10:24.833-08:00IMHO the legislation against incest and homosexual...IMHO the legislation against incest and homosexuality and adultery are more societal and are attempts to remove the PREDATORY nature – especially of males<br /><br />EG <br />A boy will feel SAFE in a mixed shower @ camp or in the army <br />When a strong STIGMA prevails Same with a younger sister etc. Same with another's wife<br /><br />Removing that STIGMA awakens that predatory nature by removing the dire consequences and compromises repression or sublimation of those drives<br /><br />As such, in my POV the one-time deviation in private is not going to undermine society so long as the STIGMA remains and closet homosexuality has less dire long-term consequencesRabbi R Wolpoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17363979745921237363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-54219828778013148932011-01-09T12:08:49.271-08:002011-01-09T12:08:49.271-08:00hetero-sexuality and homo-sexuality and not alwa...hetero-sexuality and homo-sexuality and not always black and white. Probably most people COULD go either way - ergo the strong STIGMA is a deterrent agains thomo-sexual tendencies and fosters the nurturing of heir hetero- sexual side.<br /><br />Of course The problem remains for the ones truly hardwired who cannot change themselves… This Stigma offers them no reliefRabbi R Wolpoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17363979745921237363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-46378377529925217502011-01-05T14:14:41.946-08:002011-01-05T14:14:41.946-08:00In response to the above post, I would like to foc...In response to the above post, I would like to focus on the following quotes from it: <br /> <br />“demands of the community to define, for both men and women, a potential to live full lives even without marriage”...<br />“We must be able to present to such an individual the potential to live a meaningful Torah life without marriage”<br /> <br />I STRONGLY DISAGREE with this suggestion for the following reasons:<br /><br />(1) By accepting this alternative, we would actually be furthering the gay agenda for it would seem to accept same sex attraction as not subject to change. This is morally wrong and plays right into the hands of the gay activists.<br />(2) A specific intention to not have offspring is, as I see it, a failing to have lived a life in line with Torah values, specifically the mitzvah of pru u'rvu.<br />(3) Many young people have problems growing up and have issues regarding family relationships and self identity. They are often simply signs of immaturity. People need to deal with their issues and then move on with their lives. So called same sex attraction is an issue they should leave behind so that they can move forward with their lives.<br />(4) On a certain level, it is better to get married early, without resolving all outstanding issues. People complicate their lives needlessly by delaying marriage, -- waiting for a state of perfection that never arrives. The Gemarah understands 18 as an appropriate age for marriage.<br />(5) There has to be a line in the sand that we do not cross regardless of the pressure -- the immutable value of marriage is one of them.<br />(6) Any approach short of absolute and total rejection of the gay agenda will lead young people astray. Deviant behavior should not be dressed up to look attractive. Historically, communities do end up placing some people outside the pale.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-47559345968720383502011-01-02T19:25:40.309-08:002011-01-02T19:25:40.309-08:00To add to this discussion, please also look at the...To add to this discussion, please also look at the various entries on this subject at the Nishma website, http://www.nishma.org, specifically: <br /><br />In the On Line Library Subject Index, look under the heading "Sexuality and Homosexuality", especially<br /><br />Homosexuality: Is There a Unique Torah Perspective?<br />Love and Sexuality: The Physical and the Spiritual<br />The March for Israel Parade and Halachic Decision Making <br /><br />In the Commentary Archives, look under the heading "Arayot" for a number of article on the movie "Trembling Before G-d" (which is highly problematic presentation)Nishmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04237299801109329429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-48672773947488842252011-01-01T17:39:34.744-08:002011-01-01T17:39:34.744-08:00I'm wondering if there isn't a third optio...I'm wondering if there isn't a third option between focusing on changing the individual to meet the religion and changing the religion to meet the individual. The prohibition of homosexuality in Judaism, though not practically disruptive in the lives of heterosexual community members, can still present a religious challenge in that for many of us such a prohibition is morally reprehensible. It seems to me that this issue should be taken as a very serious opportunity to ask, within the confines of Orthodoxy, not only what to do when we don't meet the Torah's standards, but also what to do when the Torah doesn't meet our standards.Anoymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06789077303283486705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-59733344010595963242010-12-31T09:47:12.444-08:002010-12-31T09:47:12.444-08:00On the Nishmablog (http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/...On the Nishmablog (http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/), I placed a post directing people to this blog and this post concerning Orthodoxy and Homosexuality. A comment was then made on this blog as follows:<br /><br />SJ said...<br /><br /> Read this if you want your kiruv skills to go up. Has nothing to do with homos or homosexuals though. lol<br /><br /><br />I in turn responded to this comment as follows:<br /><br /><br />SJ's comment is actually most interesting for it reflects the divide that really underlies this whole issue.<br /><br />From the perspective of the general society, the purpose of religion is to serve the individual. As such the value of a religion is in how it enhances a person's life, specifically in terms of spirituality or "meaning". Within this perspective, with the service of the homosexual person being a parameter that must define a religion, the issue concerns how religion will change to meet this goal. SJ's comment, within that mindset, can then be understood. My post did not serve that purpose. As such, SJ did not see it as focusing on homosexuals but on still pushing the religion.<br /><br />Of course, from our perspective, it is the human being who must meet the demands of Hashem. As such, the question is not how religion will change, per se, but on how to deal with this issue and assist homosexuals also meet the demands placed upon them by God. It is very enlightening that SJ used the word kiruv. I wonder what he actually means by that word. If he means assisting individuals follow mitzvot then I guess my post was mostly about what he terms kiruv. I, though, call it the perspective of Torah with a focus on individuals following mitzvot. That is the goal within the parameters of Torah and the very issue of Orthodoxy and Homosexuality. It is not about accomodating homosexuals, it is about helping homosexuals meet the standards of Torah. That is actually, from our perspective, the best way to help anyone.<br /><br />Rabbi Ben HechtRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-58839149510618219872010-12-31T07:09:32.830-08:002010-12-31T07:09:32.830-08:00The problems modern society has with religion are:...The problems modern society has with religion are:<br />1) it sets limits on what is considered acceptable. There is a definition of right and wrong, virtue and sin. Considering the emphasis modern secularism puts on amoralism, this is a strong area of confrontation. As well, modern secularism believes that the only good religion is one in which the chosen godhead agrees with all your desires and wishes so as to avoid causing you any distress. In some cases, limitations are seemingly minor. So you can't eat bacon. Life goes on. So you can't drive on Shabbos. Life goes on. So you can't have sex with another person of the same gender. Life goes... hang on!<br />2) It doesn't help when week after week we find religious figures in the news guilty of crimes that their religion considers henious. How can we criticize gay Jews when we see black hatted rabbis being convicted of theft, pedophilia, etc.?Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-12498165147546112312010-12-30T08:12:52.072-08:002010-12-30T08:12:52.072-08:00In the context of this policy analysis, I would li...In the context of this policy analysis, I would like to draw your attention to the following youtube cartoon video at <br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUNYBisUe8E.<br />To fully appreciate the video, one might also wish to take a look at the "It Gets Better" video that features Orthodox, gay individuals.<br /><br />These videos highlight the issue that I addresses in the post regarding the challenge that faces the Orthodox community in responding to the individual who describes himself/herself as having attractions to the same sex. The challenge is not simple as what would seem to be the simple solution, to just be welcoming, has numerous complications. Of course, we want to be sympathetic, empathetic and welcoming but the question is how we can do so in a manner that reflects our values. Groups that highlight one's definition as homosexual are problematic. What is significant about the cartoon video is that it presents the idea of reparative therapy (changing someone from homosexual to heterosexual) as a solution based on chesed and not the imposition with which it is seen in the general community. The fact is that in the general community the answer is don't change because you can have complete fulfillment as a gay person - i.e. follow your gay instincts. That is not an option in the frum world as a person who is bound by same-sex attraction al pi Halacha would have to accept a life of celibacy and aloneness. The argument of reparative therapy therefore is presented to allow an option out of this difficult result. It is importanat that this be articulated when Orthodox individuals argue for reparative therapy. <br /><br />Nevertheless, in that certain individuals do not wish to take this option or it has not worked on others (although there is always the argument to try again), it is still important to find other alternative methods of integrating such individuals, in a favourable/faithful manner both to them and Halacha, into the Orthodox community.<br /><br />Rabbi Ben HechtRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.com