tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post5798069455110778985..comments2020-10-12T10:31:26.323-07:00Comments on NISHMA: Policy: Beyond 'Off the Derech' -- Why is Someone Committed?Rabbi Ben Hechthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-73130604807495175352015-10-18T20:08:43.537-07:002015-10-18T20:08:43.537-07:00I think people go off the derech in the charedi co...I think people go off the derech in the charedi communities and places where the authorities are inflexible (and corrupt from what I hear). I don't believe science is getting in the way of religion, because most intelligent people can reconcile the two and scientists have spiritual needs.<br /><br />sophomorecritichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14320637485303592977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-33536383773103966062015-10-18T19:51:39.431-07:002015-10-18T19:51:39.431-07:00With regard to the last couple of paragraphs, isn&...With regard to the last couple of paragraphs, isn't there some difference between torah law and the standards of some communities. I know a women who left an ultra-orthodox neighborhood because they forbid her to drive on Shabbat (something that's not banned). TVs aren't banned either and people frown on those. I heard they even frown on outdoor exercise.<br /><br />I would imagine that going off the derech doesn't necessarily mean living a halachic life but no longer accepting the authority of life in one of those communities that throws on additional standards on top of the ones in the torah.<br /><br />Personally, I decided that riding a bike was no big deal when I lived in a moderately orthodox (modern orthodox with some non Shabbas observant families thrown in) because the rules said you can't fix the bike. I don't mind leaving the bike on the side of the road on the miniscule chance that it breaks. <br /><br /><br /><br />sophomorecritichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14320637485303592977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-4051299582803883232015-10-18T19:47:23.508-07:002015-10-18T19:47:23.508-07:00Rabbi Hecht has a lot of useful insight on this to...Rabbi Hecht has a lot of useful insight on this topic but copy editing is a necessity (especially now this is on a blog). The word count can be cut by at least 25% without losing an ounce of meaning. <br /><br />I think he touches well on the fact that family keeps people on the derech, but there's a darker side to that if you look at the work being done by Footsteps.org. If you leave or deviate from the lifestyle, you're family will cut you off and some communities don't train you with any skills to make it in the outside world. sophomorecritichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14320637485303592977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-56073560365250705372015-10-18T17:08:19.775-07:002015-10-18T17:08:19.775-07:00It goes back to the question I raised in my articl...It goes back to the question I raised in my article: what does 'off the derech' mean in the first place? The corollary of this is very much the question of whether the concern is a sociological one -- movement from shared sociological behaviour and the parameter that initiates that concern -- or an actual concern that there is movement from the ideology which would further raise the question of whether the ideology is being transmitted properly. Rabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-12689928275750921562015-10-18T10:58:59.632-07:002015-10-18T10:58:59.632-07:00Actually, I meant "Search for Meaning" i...Actually, I meant "Search for Meaning" in Victor Frankel's sense, which is why I used his buzz-phrase. In Frankel's case, it was surviving the camps so that he could see his wife again. Anything that you could find yourself to be living for -- it needn't be religious or nationalistic. Although, in the case of Orthodox Judaism it would be both.<br /><br />FWIW, I would not use "Torah" and "Orthodox Judaism" interchangeably. The latter is a sociologically phenomenon that does a far less than perfect job of approximating the former. The Englightenment traumatically broke Jewish culture in Ashkenazic lands. To maintain ourselves, we shifted from a cultural fealty to an ideological one. Some of the new ideologies -- starting with German Reform -- fit the new world by abandoning orthodoxy. Others, such as chassidism, the Lithuanian yeshiva and mussar movements, the German neo-Orthodoxies and the Chasam Sofer's counter-reaction, responded with Isms that maintain orthodoxy. O is thus a fuzzy set of movements, that share a common preservation of an attribute called "orthodoxy", and not a movement in and of itself.<br /><br />But, these Isms too have decayed in the disruptions of the 1st and 2nd World Wars, and today Orthodoxy is more about praxis and halakhah; they have become about Torah's means with insufficient investments in Torah's ends.<br /><br />Our kids don't so much "go off the derekh" as much as reject all that talk about halakhah -- which can be literally rendered "the art of walking" -- without a sufficient picture of a derekh, the path they're supposed to travel.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-36644823724406432882015-10-18T10:11:14.960-07:002015-10-18T10:11:14.960-07:00I think that R. Micha is really expressing the tru...I think that R. Micha is really expressing the true dynamic nature of Torah as it interacts with the multidimensional nature of the population. OJ is not monolithic or intended to be monolithic. In variant presentations which are really an outgrowth of its true essence -- as much as they are in many ways vastly different in behaviour -- we see how OJ can provide what the individual desires in a unique individual sense. The one question I would have on R. Micha's point is whether I would limit this expression or search to what we may term 'meaning'. The drive to connect may be communal and/or nationalistic. Are those drives tied to meaning? That may be a question of semantics but going beyond R. Micha's point, the spectrum of motivation that connects the individual to Orthodoxy may go beyond 'meaning'.<br /><br />RBHRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-1180303339021242952015-10-15T12:50:11.520-07:002015-10-15T12:50:11.520-07:00People commit when the matter in question satisfie...People commit when the matter in question satisfies a need.<br /><br />In this case, someone would commit to Orthodox Judaism if it resolved their search for meaning.<br /><br />And I know you don't want to ask the usual, negative question, but I can't think of a way to phrase my point in the reverse, so... Why does OJ fail to satisfy people's need for meaning?<br /><br />1- Through no fault of its own. Failure of a representative of the religion, a parent, a rabbi, a Jewish studies teacher, the social context...<br /><br />2- Being told -- not literally, but absorbed culturally, on a gut level -- that a particular version of O is the sole correct one, and that version doesn't fit the person's needs. The Mod-O youth who finds the synthesis to be more of a compromise. The chareidi youth who finds the expected roles too narrow and not fiting their skills and temperament. Etc...<br /><br />And so rejection of one interpretation of O becomes total abandonment.<br /><br />3- There is a post-modern zeitgeist today in which the 13 Ani Ma'amin's aren't as "real" as science. The whole topic of non-empirical truth is played down. In order to foster tolerance and acceptance of other people, things about which humanity disagrees that cannot be readily proven to each other are deemed subjective. Faith systems (including atheism) are no longer considered true or false, but "true for him".<br /><br />And so meaning is sought in providing others with their physical wants, rather than positing the existence of anything else.<br /><br />But I think #3 explains current trends, it's less a primary cause like no.s 1 or 2.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875690158549524163.post-74191821281233980992015-10-15T08:49:01.796-07:002015-10-15T08:49:01.796-07:00FWIW, the recent Pew study of Orthodox Jews shows ...FWIW, the recent Pew study of Orthodox Jews shows the percentage of people departing is declining. And not just in comparison to the mid-20th century, and the loss of most of the unobservant Orthodox. But even in comparison to the 30-49 yr old cadre -- 18-29 yr old stay at a rate of 83%, the group just above them (all of whom were teens in the late '70s onward) are at 57%.<br /><br />I think the numbers are up because the declining percentage is of a greater number of children. So that now, 17% will mean the majority of chareidi homes have at least one child who left Orthodoxy. Which creates an air of panic.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.com